tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.comments2023-03-31T04:29:04.457-07:00To Distant LandsAlex Chalkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comBlogger92125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-57960405346583879342022-06-12T10:41:13.215-07:002022-06-12T10:41:13.215-07:00This is a great point. In the post I take aim at &...This is a great point. In the post I take aim at "design" issues but perhaps a more accurate framing would be "writing conventions" (interesting question: in RPGs, where do you draw the line between those?). I suspect, as you and Yochai have both noted, that I might find these ideas easier to work my way into if I were better acquainted with some aspects of the context and subtext.<br /><br />But then I think back to Whitehack and remember that sometimes a game just tells you to assign an arbitrary number to a thing. Editions of D&D have done this exact thing for years and, for all their flaws, have put a lot of work into making the calculation of such a number into something communicable and more or less rational. Which returns me to the question of what is or is not reasonable to expect from a game text. (Again, I notice I'm talking about text now and not design. Hmm...) Whitehack does a pretty poor job of telling you how to derive that number while also placing it near the center of its design (aha! There's the design!). This means that players will eventually need to derive some functional (and presumably consistent) way of answering that question.<br /><br />My question, which I would love an answer to (in general, not from you in particular) is why it's preferable to leave that answer out of the text. Why is it better for each group to derive their own method for doing this kind of abstract quasi-math? What, besides a slimmer volume, does a group stand to gain from developing that procedure themself? What does the game lose when the author provides their own answer?Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-81515287955568913992022-06-12T10:24:11.090-07:002022-06-12T10:24:11.090-07:00Hello! Apologies, blogger doesn't notify me of...Hello! Apologies, blogger doesn't notify me of comments so I'm only seeing this now.<br /><br />Sorry if my language offends. Again, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of bad faith. I would appreciate if people allowed me some leniency with my tone. The dunking I refer to is the actual criticism, not swearing, a thing I figured people in this space largely have the stomach for. I'm annoyed the tone is the thing people are honing in on, but I guess I made my bed there.<br /><br />If I'm following the gist of your comment correctly, your argument is that I'm misapprehending the ethos of FKR. This is entirely possible as I've lurked those conversations more than engaged. However, are you saying the FKR puts no value on game design whatsoever? That there is no need for any structure of any kind, ever? If so, why not just play pretend? I mean, true Calvinball-style make-it-up as you go pretend, with no framing, no mechanisms, no precedence?<br /><br />I've always understood FKR design to be oriented at distilling the minimum sufficient amount of structure to support a certain type of game. If that doesn't touch on matters of game design and definition, then what is it? What am I misunderstanding here, and what is a more correct formulation? If I'm missing the point, what is the point I'm missing?<br /><br />I'm also, again, really not taking a categorical dig at FKR. I've been following it for years and think it's full of good ideas. If anything I am trying to speak back to where I see persistent issues in both FKR and OSR work (Whitehack predates FKR by a number of years!). I also emphasized in the post the way fiction-first framing and "worlds, not rules" can potentially remedy address some of the holes I'm taking about, although I have yet to see a persuasive proof of concept.Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-75995495202349871772022-06-08T12:49:45.631-07:002022-06-08T12:49:45.631-07:00hi alex! i really like what you said, that claims ...hi alex! i really like what you said, that claims of the OSR being original are formative acts of the culture rather than actual accounts of history :) that being said, i don't think every attachment to the term 'OSR' is indebted to that founding myth; in fact, i'd rather see people who attach themselves to the 'OSR' as an empty acronym (which, i think, is many people) rather than embracing the myth because they like the play style or culture.<br /><br />also, looking at the OSR as a tradition (or many) surrounding those old texts would be really productive i think!Marcia B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04372016623917160094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-33770342180275661292022-06-04T15:35:03.421-07:002022-06-04T15:35:03.421-07:00The impression I got of Cairn's "authoria...The impression I got of Cairn's "authorial voice" is very collaborative, welcoming, and kind. I did think that the entry on diagetic advancement in the rulebook felt like a punt, however. The expanded section in the FAQ is very helpful, in that it gives example effects ("ok, this game wants enhanced/impaired rather than bonuses, use becoming deprived as a balancing cost, got it") and some guidance on what sources of training look like. I think you can get away with a "make it up" ethos, even in some load-bearing parts of a game, as long as you've included the right tools/framework to help the referee improvise the right way for the game. For another example, Lair of the Lamb doesn't have a bestiary but it does have a section for how to convert/invent monsters so that they work for that system and the adventure includes some monsters as examples.Tom Kilianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17086235205146158319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-68823344727664985272022-06-02T09:42:29.171-07:002022-06-02T09:42:29.171-07:00The lack of bestiaries is really sad because monst...The lack of bestiaries is really sad because monster books are the most interesting part of the book for people who aren't rules-heads. I imagine they're time consuming to write and expensive to illustrate, which might make them less desirable to produce? Owen Gannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858048111642941031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-54189873218032592602022-06-02T05:09:44.270-07:002022-06-02T05:09:44.270-07:00Imagine you buy a pair of shoes, only to complain ...Imagine you buy a pair of shoes, only to complain that the steering column is missing.<br /><br />If you don't like Whitehack or Cairn, play something else. Lots of people on the other hand like them and play them successfully. Maybe they don't need - nor want! - a steering column after all.<br /><br />>If we agree that certain elements of the game design matter and need definition for the game to work well<br /><br />We don't agree. That's the point you're clearly missing. If you disagree with the premise/ethos/goal of FKR, don't play FKR, it's not for you.<br /><br />> It doesn't bring me any joy to dunk on other people's work like this<br /><br />Then don't do it? You could've worded your thoughts in many ways, and you went with the offensive one.emarskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10733243569261035165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-33571676130091180162022-06-01T11:19:57.230-07:002022-06-01T11:19:57.230-07:00This is an excellent analysis, and helps me put my...This is an excellent analysis, and helps me put my finger on why a lot of rules-light games I've looked at have left me cold. <br /><br />An interesting corollary: the more familiar a given group is with a certain aspect of play, the less they need rules to shortcut those areas. For example if everyone in a gaming group does HEMA, they will be much more able to think through what happens in combat fictionally, drawing on their shared expertise, and need the abstracted combat system less. They may even find that the abstraction of the combat system starts to chafe. I haven't looked deeply into FKR spaces, but I get the impression that they try to trade on this dynamic a lot -- substituting research for rules when it comes to aspects of play one doesn't encounter in daily life. I wonder if the storygame background assumptions about collaborative worldbuilding that Yochai Gal mentions serve a similar function in a different way; letting those unfamiliar areas be covered smoothly in the course of play versus cutting them out of the negative space of normal play by explicitly covering them in the scaffolding rules.Wiwaxiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05906483637952484278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-59467285342404364012022-06-01T09:58:22.081-07:002022-06-01T09:58:22.081-07:00All well and good until you start adding AC adjust...All well and good until you start adding AC adjustments for magic, DEX, etc. B+++? C-? Etc.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-38364395578043506842022-05-31T04:27:26.059-07:002022-05-31T04:27:26.059-07:00I think coming from a storygame background really ...I think coming from a storygame background really helped in this respect; the assumptions around collaborative worldbuilding and such made this sort of thing easier for folks like me, I think. Much as the familiarity of levels and XP help orient folks from other backgrounds.Yochai Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04226464338061503830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-36454781846168106162022-05-31T04:24:22.226-07:002022-05-31T04:24:22.226-07:00I really appreciate that you mentioned specific ga...I really appreciate that you mentioned specific games because I wasn't sure what you meant by your critique until you did. Ironically, your critique made Whitehack and Cairn more appealing to me. As a GM, I don't feel put-upon if a game asks me to make stuff up, even if it's magic or training, since that's my kind of fun. phillcallehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916823080685391523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-77136984131379430982022-05-31T04:17:19.716-07:002022-05-31T04:17:19.716-07:00Again, I am not trying to speak to intent, which I...Again, I am not trying to speak to intent, which I was I meant above about not wanting to reflect on the author's ethos. And I'm not trying to start a conversation about the ethics of charging or not charging -- I may as well have said the car is given freely. I regret that it has come off that way.Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-82101249876141108742022-05-31T04:09:49.775-07:002022-05-31T04:09:49.775-07:00I don't mind the criticism, but I think the as...I don't mind the criticism, but I think the assumption of authorial intent is off, that's all. There are huge gaps in Cairn (if there weren't, it would never have been published). I can understand why someone would struggle with some bits, especially if they were used to better scaffolding. <br /><br />There was one goal in mind when writing Cairn: Into The Odd, but Fantasy. ItO doesn't have levels and relies on foreground growth (and Chris notoriously is a bit mum about how it all works). I've never had issues with this kind of narrative advancement, but I understand the difficulty it might present (hence the example of play in the FAQ).<br /><br />The problem I have with your analogy of the car is that I have never sold the game to anyone. You can get it free or PoD. There is no bait and switch.<br /><br />You can write all you like about how rules lite games are missing important chunks (and I agree, Cairn is that!) but the framing and title here is not only offensive to a minor degree but implies an intent that could not be further from the truth!Yochai Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04226464338061503830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-52597382861882871042022-05-31T03:46:10.159-07:002022-05-31T03:46:10.159-07:00Hi Yochai, thanks for these comments. I've run...Hi Yochai, thanks for these comments. I've run Cairn a few times and have read the FAQ. The examples of training are appreciated but still without some indication of underlying principles (as far as I can tell the examples given contradict the principles outlined for growth?) they're of limited use -- or at least require more interpretation than I have time for.<br /><br />I had mixed feelings about calling out specific games and still do, especially as I like your work, but I needed examples and the training stuff is the freshest and most recent example I've encountered. For what it's worth I don't mean to frame the "fuck you" as a reflection of a game's (or its author's) ethos.Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-55835170181126949452022-05-31T03:24:14.502-07:002022-05-31T03:24:14.502-07:00I think this is a solid critique, but you may have...I think this is a solid critique, but you may have perhaps lumped Cairn into something it's not. <br /><br />I much prefer the type of narrative growth indicated by the system, and personally don't find it difficult not taxing (of course not it's my game!). But I do think it is lacking solid examples and procedures to help folks with it, which is why I added a section in the FAQ, and plan on expanding on it in the next release. The reason I don't have it in the original book is not to say "fuck you" (and anyone interacting with me in this space knows that isn't a thing I would ever say) but more that I wanted a tool to run the games I like, and as a non-professional designer I accepted that there would be all kinds of missing chunks in the rules (otherwise I would never have finished it).<br /><br />Anyway here is the bit in the FAQ (including a section on trainers):<br />https://cairnrpg.com/resources/frequently-asked-questions/#how-do-pcs-advance-without-things-like-levels-or-xp<br /><br />In the end, I think your criticism is solid (though perhaps you weren't aware of the website?) But I really don't appreciate you calling it "fuck you" design. That isn't what I'm about. Hell the game is free and POD. The last thing I want to tell people is 'fuck you " about anything.Yochai Galhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04226464338061503830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-64718769927508437102022-05-31T02:07:50.778-07:002022-05-31T02:07:50.778-07:00Great post! I have had similar thoughts when readi...Great post! I have had similar thoughts when reading many minimal games, from OSRish pamphlet games to one-page RPGs like Lasers & Feelings. Also more than one OSR game has declared that bestiaries are boring and GMs should just invent their own monsters, without even giving any guidance on how to make good opponents.<br /><br />As for Whitehack, I love its magic system because I find that process of building spells really engaging, but it is Work and I don't run Whitehack for all my groups and when I recommend Whitehack it's always with a qualification that the DIY magic is not for everyone.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14906521550345355346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-60544923052771965782022-05-30T23:43:07.427-07:002022-05-30T23:43:07.427-07:00I prefer Whitehack's magic system over almost ...I prefer Whitehack's magic system over almost all other D&D types precisely because of its vagueness. Casting Fireball or Sleep in D&D doesn't feel like magic, it is too confined and predictable. Deliberating the effect, scope and duration between GM and player in Whitehack does feel like crafting a spell. Also, there are some guidelines about the amount of HP (between d6-2 and 2d6+2) it costs: "... the player can negotiate a lower cost by including rare ingredients, drawbacks, extra casting time, drugs, etc." Horst Wursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14893387636818984848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-28950020167560642192022-05-19T19:17:25.774-07:002022-05-19T19:17:25.774-07:00just saw this! using letters is a great idea :) wa...just saw this! using letters is a great idea :) way less confusing than numbers--thanks garyMarcia B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04372016623917160094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-73489488126726169872022-04-11T06:17:10.331-07:002022-04-11T06:17:10.331-07:00Hey! I don't get notifications for blog commen...Hey! I don't get notifications for blog comments and did not see this until now. This is a really compelling approach to this design. Thanks for sharing, I'll be thinking these ideas over!Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-22417708969004936492022-03-04T15:12:01.894-08:002022-03-04T15:12:01.894-08:00How to Find the Best Casino in San Francisco
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Great to have you. :)Welcome to the bandwagon~<br /><br />Great to have you. :)Dreaming Dragonslayerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213571633929290775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-62909111401628538522022-02-20T23:23:25.551-08:002022-02-20T23:23:25.551-08:00its not a clean break from the scar system, but if...its not a clean break from the scar system, but if you are trying to get a limitbreak without adding any ither mechanics, 'leveling up' on reaching 0hp (even if only temporarily) gets you there. Maybe make it work like 13th Age's escalation die? <br /><br />Could even have different styles of limitbreaks, make each one fill an inventory slot, the more slots filled for one means the bigger escalation die used when activated; fills double the slots after expending to explain exhaustion.<br /><br />That or its linked to saves, but FKR doesnt assume those are present from what ive read Mufnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553153945316136891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-20347062421206987742022-02-04T18:58:19.969-08:002022-02-04T18:58:19.969-08:00Las Vegas Sands Casino | Free Spins | Slots, Chips...Las Vegas Sands Casino | Free Spins | Slots, Chips & More<br />Play all your favorite Vegas-style slot games on the Las Vegas Strip. Enjoy the excitement of a casino vacation. <a href="https://septcasino.com/review/sands-casino/" rel="nofollow">샌즈 카지노 도메인</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-24469300378336666692022-01-11T09:53:09.058-08:002022-01-11T09:53:09.058-08:00poggerspoggersCaptain Crowbarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11959402382179885595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4541460986559668771.post-56085353864297069872021-10-13T10:10:48.792-07:002021-10-13T10:10:48.792-07:00If you don't count it an Ancillary book, Prove...If you don't count it an Ancillary book, Provenance is great too. Very different from her other books in terms of its focus but great character writing as always and provides a very different perspective on the Ancillary universe.Alex Chalkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05288387168096568471noreply@blogger.com